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 Post subject: Re: Terraformer's help requested for a 4x4 var-region
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:17 am 
Furious Typer

Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:53 pm
Posts: 165
Shad

If memory serves me right, I saw somewhere that the tree module is not priority, I would have thought opensim IS priority, and that everything that is opensim is priority, regardless of what modules are what, and being the trees module is part of opensim it should be a priority, if not, then remove it all together.

I for one would find it easier to populate a large area such as 4x4 or larger with trees if there was an easier and quicker way of doing it, but manually rezzing tress on such an area can take months, or years even,,,,,,,,even if on uses copy and drag, it can still take months.


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 Post subject: Re: Terraformer's help requested for a 4x4 var-region
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:14 pm 
Furious Typer

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:40 pm
Posts: 95
Shad MOrdre {L_WROTE}:
Jozee,

You might want to read the post you referenced earlier.

WhiteStar Magic clearly states that the z value in m_seed_point MUST be zero. He goes on to state that the tree module is buggy and that it doesn't work on mega regions. These posts are from 5 years ago, covering much earlier versions.

I am willing to bet that the code updates that gave us var regions probably suffers the same issues as mega regions did. Even still, filling a space with trees that appear to be randomly placed can still be done with copy/paste, and a little firing of a few brain cells.

However, a space as large as 64sq km, the 8x8 varregion, filled with trees from the tree module, would certainly crash most viewers. A single region filled with trees can tax most servers.

A scripted solution could also be implemented here, that would probably work better. You can define the area for growing, and a script can be told to avoid buildings and water as needed.


As for where the trees are, they are in the distro, hard coded like all library assets. The .XML files existed somewhere out there, I have a copy of them. You can also plant trees straight off the build menu as well.

Shad


Sorry folks but Whitestar was dead wrong. Z=0 will result in 0 trees. And I have filled an 8x8 with trees using the tree module. I actually started with a mega upon which tree definitely did not work and did the planting by laboriously loading each individual oar to the base location, planting, saving the oar and putting it back to the original location. I converted this to a var, and it is running just fine standalone on a old dual-core laptop. myownhostname.ddns.net:9000. I got a little carried away with trees ending up with around 20K, and the region is a bit laggy mostly due to my slow line. I am in the process of planting on Opensim Sailing, another 8x8 var connected to OSGrid, but running on a cloud.

I referenced that forum post as an overview of the functionality. There was a far better article which I used as a reference but this seems to have vanished.


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 Post subject: Re: Terraformer's help requested for a 4x4 var-region
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:58 pm 
Furious Typer
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Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:48 pm
Posts: 184
Location: OSgrid, of course!
Marlon,

As to the priorities within the Opensim project, trees are not the priority that some other tasks and issues have become. Take, for instance, the debugging of v0.9.0. Since it's release, I've not heard anything good. Therefore, I would certainly prioritize getting it fixed over trying to improve something. The improvements will come with their own set of bugs to be worked out, because 10 developers will never be able to replicate the 1000s of users that use Opensim, and thus, the millions of potential issues and ideas that come from those 1000s of users. But that's all irrelevant.

If you are simply trying to copy/paste a single tree, your right, that would take months, and therefore isn't an option. But it's also lazy thinking. It isn't the copy/pasting that is inefficient, it is copying and pasting a single tree that is inefficient. Copy a tree. Place that tree. Now go back and copy the two trees. Paste the two trees. Then copy the four trees. And so on. This is very efficient, and will literally fill a region in under an hour. To fill an 32x32 var, or more correctly an 8kmx8km, or 64sq km, might take a little time, more so due to planning ecosystems, biomes, and such. The process does not take more than a couple of hours to fill a 4x4, (1 sq km), var. This is certainly faster than planting and waiting for a tree to grow in the middle of your house. ;)

Jozee,

At the time, WhiteStar was very correct. Read the Mantis to which he refers. Justincc even acknowledged this. And, for the record, those discussions, being 5 years old and at least 5 version obsolete, may not be the case for the current version.

Based on what you state, you used a single region to build out a mega, that was then converted to a var. The planting, according to your words, was done on a single region and imported into a mega. Or, you just did not clearly explain your process.

An important point to make here is that 20 thousand trees on a var region leaves little room for actual building. Each asset eats into the 15000/45000 prim limit of each region. A single region with with 20000 trees cannot be scaled up to a larger var region without accounting for this.

Whether or not the trees module works, the only point I've tried to make here is that the tree module is not the solution to every problem. And certainly, to those who have or have had issues with it, it is probably just not worth the effort.

Shad


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 Post subject: Re: Terraformer's help requested for a 4x4 var-region
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:57 pm 
Furious Typer

Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:53 pm
Posts: 165
Shad

I'm curious, as to why, when a new release is released, it isn't tested fully first, before being released to opensim users?, (doesn't OSGrid have a test bed for this?) instead it's left up to the users themselves to post mantises that probably won't get seen until after 9 or 10 versions are out already and the posted mantis is no longer relevant to the current version. Ideally, when fixes or a major version is released it should be tested by the developers first before being released to the users, then if any major bugs are found they can be fixed, there are obviously some minor bugs, that of course a user can mantis, but the major ones should be found and fixed way before the new major version is released, thus preventing millions (exaggerating a bit) of posted mantises.


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 Post subject: Re: Terraformer's help requested for a 4x4 var-region
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 12:11 am 
Furious Typer
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:48 pm
Posts: 184
Location: OSgrid, of course!
Marlon,

I am certain that the devs test their code updates before releasing them to be committed to the code that then gets released. But keep in mind here, at only version 0.9.0, the Opensim software is considered alpha, which means that it is still not a finished product. That is clearly stated in the release notes for Opensim.

As I referenced in the previous post, with only about 10 or so core developers, there is no way they will ever be able to foresee every possible issue that may arise. But that is the purpose of OSGrid, to be the test bed. Most users accept the limitations of a given release, and hope for better on the next.

When a developer writes code, they test that the code they wrote, works. If they are writing code to fix a problem, when testing, if the problem goes away with the new code, then the code gets released. It is not practical to test every possible use of the code.

Look at Windows. At version 10, and 25 years since Microsoft released version 1.0 as a finished product, it is still full of bugs. They pop up. It happens. Every project I've ever worked on has taught me that bugs happen. Even new cars exhibit this behavior. In fact, every product, not just software, experiences this. That is why there are product recalls. Nothing is, or can ever be made to be perfect or error free. To expect anything else is simply unrealistic.

The best way to solve any issue is to really jump in and help with the solution. Even if you aren't a coder, testing and providing positive constructive feedback, with attached logs, and a method for reproducing an error, will get you somewhere. Without the logs, or a method to reproduce, I would blow off the complaint, as there simply isn't enough time to chase down and address every possible scenario. And let's not forget, that with so many people being non-IT types, many people report as a problem something that is really not a problem with the code, but a problem between their keyboard and chair, ie, the user is the problem. That is a sad reality. Opensim works. It's not perfect. And there are many improvements that even I'd like to see. But unless I start hammering out code, well, my wishes just sit there.

And always remember, that no Opensim developer is getting paid. They do this when they have time. And they work on the issues that interest them or that have a majority of users pushing for. Much like the hobby that we enjoy called Opensim. We only get to play when we have time.

I hope this helps to understand the process and time behind the efforts of the Opensim devs.


Shad


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 Post subject: Re: Terraformer's help requested for a 4x4 var-region
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:11 am 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:49 am
Posts: 40
@Marlon: OSGrid _is_ the testbed for the development of OpenSimulator and the 0.9 isn't released yet. It is called 0.9-DEV for a reason. In this environment we can test what the developers build (for us) and see if errors or regressions emerge they couldn't even have thought of because everyone uses this software in a subtly different way. It is very important to report those errors via Mantis, because the devs won't and can't wade through gigabytes of server logs to see if anyone hit any error on any of the thousands of regions OSGrid consists of. That way the final release will be cleared of a lot of bugs, but as more people use the -RELEASE in contrast to the -DEV version they will still find bugs which didn't show up (or weren't reported) during the maturing phase on the testgrid.

Ciaoo

Sheera


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 Post subject: Re: Terraformer's help requested for a 4x4 var-region
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:36 am 
Furious Typer

Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:53 pm
Posts: 165
@ Sheers

I just checked and as far as I know there has never been any -RELEASE- of OSGrid opensim, all their downloads are -dev releases, and that includes the previous "release" OSgrid OpenSimulator 0.8.3.dev.41b2855 - [31.9mb] 10-21-2015 soooo,basically there is no "final" release until opensim has changed from beta to alpha.

Making reference to windows as a comparison, there is no comparison, windows sure does have "minor" bugs, but windows is NOT released to the general public while it's still being developed, until MS is satisfied that at least 90% of major bugs are ironed out, if MS released windows while still in development, people would be furious and demanding their money back, because of all the "major" bugs that are thrown at them, I'm using windows 7 right now, and not once did a major (I call major something like a blue screen every time I click on an icon, or a crash when installing every piece of software) bug, minor ones? Yes, such as screen flicker during video playback, which was down to the video drivers, so, imo, opensim can be tested offline on a testbed while a semi stable version is available for public use, I use the word "semi" being that every software does have its bugs, minor bugs that is, nothing major.

Back in the day I used to be a Commodore C64 software developer, I used to write the anti-hacking software back-end for the games, but I never released any of my software unless the majority of "major" bugs was ironed out,,,, what if I wrote some 6502 asm and as far as I'm concerned it works, but when someone else has it running on their system which could be configured differently to mine, and it keeps crashing their system? I wouldn't be employed by Commodore any-more, so I made sure at least it does what I wrote it to do.

Oh, and before anyone says "if I was a programmer, then why don't I help with opensim", simply put, I'm an old vet at 6502 machine language, and opensim doesn't use that. If I was in my 20s to 30s, I would learn C++ but I'm not and therefore I can't.


woah, I just realized we're going off track here, my op was to ask for a terraformers help, but with thanks to Shad, I'm using his heightmap for my medieval var region, and all I need to do now is ask other people's help in building towns, villages, etc etc, I've added some stuff and Caro has accepted my request at building a cave, and Mystic Midnight has also accepted my request for her help with building stuff, and after all the buildings have been situated then I can add a forest here and there,and some foliage at places, and finally, a few NPC's either static and/or roaming.


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 Post subject: Re: Terraformer's help requested for a 4x4 var-region
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 1:04 pm 
Furious Typer

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:40 pm
Posts: 95
What is wrong with version 9? I have been using it for almost a month, and I think it is just dandy. Vehicle performance with UBODE is excellent! Kudos all around to the dev team!


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 Post subject: Re: Terraformer's help requested for a 4x4 var-region
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:57 am 
Furious Typer

Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:53 pm
Posts: 165
Jozee Tungsten {L_WROTE}:
What is wrong with version 9? I have been using it for almost a month, and I think it is just dandy. Vehicle performance with UBODE is excellent! Kudos all around to the dev team!

Where do I start?

1..........V9 is ok IF! you only want to use ubOde for vehicles
2..........Try getting another avatar to rez something in a var region, their object will suddenly vanish and re-appear at region co-ordinates 0,0,0
3..........Far to many warp 3D texture warnings, especially if one has quite a few textures, the region console will just keep scrolling the warnings slowing down the region startup sequence, AND, it still hasn't been fixed since it first appeared back in v0.7.5, the only fix is to change MapImageModule = "Warp3DImageModule" to MapImageModule = "MapImageModule" in OpenSim.ini until the warp 3D imager has been fixed, as can be seen from this mantis posted 2012:- http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=6413 and this one too from 2013 and updated 2014 :- http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=6735

There's still more but it's 7am here and I'm getting tired, time for bed.


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 Post subject: Re: Terraformer's help requested for a 4x4 var-region
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:19 pm 
Furious Typer

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:40 pm
Posts: 95
Marlon Wulluf {L_WROTE}:
Jozee Tungsten {L_WROTE}:
What is wrong with version 9? I have been using it for almost a month, and I think it is just dandy. Vehicle performance with UBODE is excellent! Kudos all around to the dev team!

Where do I start?

1..........V9 is ok IF! you only want to use ubOde for vehicles
2..........Try getting another avatar to rez something in a var region, their object will suddenly vanish and re-appear at region co-ordinates 0,0,0
3..........Far to many warp 3D texture warnings, especially if one has quite a few textures, the region console will just keep scrolling the warnings slowing down the region startup sequence, AND, it still hasn't been fixed since it first appeared back in v0.7.5, the only fix is to change MapImageModule = "Warp3DImageModule" to MapImageModule = "MapImageModule" in OpenSim.ini until the warp 3D imager has been fixed, as can be seen from this mantis posted 2012:- http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=6413 and this one too from 2013 and updated 2014 :- http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=6735

There's still more but it's 7am here and I'm getting tired, time for bed.


Wow! I have not seen any of those. Performance has been flawless for me. I am running an 8x8 var on a cloud Ubuntu 14.04 server with mono 3.2.8. A very basic server with a 30G drive, single core, 1G memory. I am getting a solid 55 fps out of the sim and I have laid down a little over 4k prims so far (mostly trees what a surprise lol). I just installed the stock OSGrid download that was current December 21st.


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