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 Post subject: Maximum number of regions?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:31 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:24 pm
Posts: 45
Hello everyone,

Would anyone like to share with me the maximum number of regions they've run in a single instance of Open Sim? I have a feeling that the number is probably dictated by hardware limitations. I know there could be grid limitations, so let's talk stand-alone only.

I once set up a 10x10 'array' of regions and things seemed to run fine, but to terraform I had to restart with only five or six regions "live".

I'd be interested in hearing about anyone's experiences doing something like this.

Thanks!

Pak


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 Post subject: Re: Maximum number of regions?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:52 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:09 pm
Posts: 436
Hi for a long time I had a block of 9 regions running on an AMD Single Core 2.8 MHz with 3 gigs of memory and this was a standalone which was non-mega. Never had any real lag or problems terra forming.

But I recently upgraded to an AMD 3.6 Mhz Quad core with 8 gigs of memory (can add more later) and a ASUS ATI 1 gig Graphics card. I have also added two more blocks of 4 regions each to my standalone. I say blocks because these are not all connected. Again this is a single standalone and using MySQL. I have no lag and again no problems with terra forming, however this is not a mega region. But the Hardware is definitely a determination of what you can handle I have found.


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 Post subject: Re: Maximum number of regions?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:43 am 
Furious Typer
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Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 9:15 pm
Posts: 95
Location: Florida/USA
I realize this post is a few months old, but just thought I'd add a response to the original question just in case anyone is interested.
I was running 36 consecutive regions in 1 stand-alone instance without any problems and that was still using the imbedded SQLite engine.
My machine is a server build with dual quad core AMD Opterons and 16 GB of RAM and ~1TB (2x500GB) of disk drives in a stripped configuration.
The only issues I recall having was an odd persistence of prims that were previously removed .. showing up again after a restart.
Also, with the SQLite engine I often ran into border crossing hangs since the response seemed somewhat slower than it should have been.

Recently, I changed the data base engine to MySQL and initially started out with all 36 regions set up as 1 giant mega region. (1x36)
The only "glitches" then was an odd texture rendering of atmospheric and water effects at the further regions. Otherwise, it ran smoothly
and was a pleasant experience to cross the entire mega region without any change logging on the console. Border crossing was a non-issue
and teleporting to anywhere on the mega region was near instantaneous. One thing I noticed was that although all individual region names still showed up
on the map, they would show up under the name of the 1st region in the viewer no matter where I went. I thought this was odd although it caused no problems.
Considering the graphic glitches on the far end from the initial region, I changed the mega region back into 36 individual regions and this restored
the atmospheric and water graphics rendering to the way it was intended. Crossing borders under MySQL is still more responsive than when using the SQLite
and has not caused any hang issues.

The next experiment I am considering is dividing the 36 regions into four separate estates consisting of 9 regions (set up as mega regions)
on a grid configuration running on the same server. Technically, this is still considered a "stand-alone" since everything is still being run on the same machine.
I think the smaller 4x9 mega regions may preclude the graphics glitch as I had with the 1x36 super region.
Setting up of the 4 mega regions will configure the center region with 15000 prim allowance while the outlying regions will be limited to about 7500 prim allowance
to simulate additional scenery. (Recall the Sim Surrounds in SL?) But in this case, the surrounds will be accessible and non-phantom with their own prim allowance.
Seeing all regions show up in the viewer with the same primary region name is a bit disconcerting .. but I think it will be possible to give all 9 regions the same
name as long as each still maintains its own UUID.
This means running the robust services in one instance and then separating the original single simulator instance into 4 separate instances (exe's) on the same machine.
However, I've noticed that when I've accidently started another exe without proper setup, the application suddenly stopped responding. I guess this is to be expected. But
once I set up separate simulator exe's and them tied to the ROBUST grid server .. this should negate any hangs.


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 Post subject: Re: Maximum number of regions?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:23 pm 
OSG Elite
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Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:19 am
Posts: 1047
Location: Czech Republic
While we are speaking about reliability and performance there is nothing better than one region per instance. Small databases are pretty fast and it can use more than one CPU...


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 Post subject: Re: Maximum number of regions?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:54 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:57 pm
Posts: 444
Bo Iwu {L_WROTE}:
While we are speaking about reliability and performance there is nothing better than one region per instance. Small databases are pretty fast and it can use more than one CPU...


Can you Validate that with performance testing & metrics and show us the comparative numbers ?

I'd love to see it as I have run a massive array of configurations and there is nothing whatsoever that I have seen in such long term testing that would give any credibility to that statement.

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 Post subject: Re: Maximum number of regions?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:37 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:19 am
Posts: 1047
Location: Czech Republic
WhiteStar Magic {L_WROTE}:
Bo Iwu {L_WROTE}:
Can you Validate that with performance testing & metrics and show us the comparative numbers ?

I'd love to see it as I have run a massive array of configurations and there is nothing whatsoever that I have seen in such long term testing that would give any credibility to that statement.


No i can't show you comparative numbers. This statement is based on understanding to how it works.

Configuration - 1 region/instance
- 1 dedicated TCP http listener port
- 1 dedicated UDP region port
- dedicated DB for the instance
- shared estate DB

Configuration - many regions/instance
- 1 dedicated TCP http listener port
- 1 dedicated UDP port for each region
- dedicated DB for the instance
- shared estate DB

Performance advantages - many regions/instance
- faster teleports within sims of that instance
- faster childagents ( the way your presence is being send to the other sim ) between sims of that instance

reliability advantages - many regions/instance
- none i know

Performance advantages - 1 region/instance
- faster start and backup to DB ( queries in smaller DB always gives higher performance )
- faster memory operations over smaller amount of data ( yes, even seek in memory can be slow)
- better CPU utilization ( each instance is limited to one core )
- each single region can bear more prims (the 60k prim limit is not shared)
- reduced load on instance's internal http server (known for poor performance)

Reliability advantages - 1 region/instance
- crash always terminates just one region
- easy and quick backup/recovery of single region using MySql dumps (no assets)

I am using this configuration 1region/instance for my most important sims. Of course for the less important ones i am using up to 4 sims per instance. Eg. residential sim and seas around...

Bo


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 Post subject: Re: Maximum number of regions?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:36 pm 
Furious Typer
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Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:38 pm
Posts: 57
Location: Germany
For some years I follow a simple server strategy with success:

1 CPU for each full region (many scripts, prims, avatars) or 4 low traffic regions.
500 kb granted Memory for running OpenSim, plus 500 kb for each full region.

The maximum I ran on a V-Server with 1 CPU and 2 GB granted memory was 2 Regions with scripts and prims for general use, surrounded by 10 regions of water. In this setting inworld terraforming was very slow, but no other problems.

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 Post subject: Re: Maximum number of regions?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:26 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:50 am
Posts: 14
Location: Caerdydd, Cymru, DU
Interesting discussion. I found this forum whilst searching for information on megaregions, which, as far as I am concerned, are the way to go. I am ambitious, and whilst this isn't without it's pitfalls, I have fairly successfully set up a 63 region mega running on one instance using MySQL. The hardware I'm using is an AMD FX-8120 8 Core 3.10GHz with a Gigabyte GA-78LMT-USB3 motherboard and 32GB of RAM.

Sometimes things run a little slowly, as is to be expected, but I'm led to believe from what I have read that a major limitation is the viewer, which of course is largely built with a certain commercial grid in mind. I'm a relative noob to all this, and would welcome any suggestions as to making it run more smoothly, perhaps we, those of us interested in megaregions could start to communicate with a view to establishing an information resource to replace what is at present a virtual dearth. I'm sure that the information is 'out there' as I know that several high profile OpenSim developers are interested in megaregions, but it's near impossible to find up to date and valid information about megas online.

I know there are a lot of detractors of megaregions, probably as many as those who oppose Hypergrid, (why are they in OpenSim then?) though I have yet to hear as much utter garbage spoken about megas as I hear about HG! (It's my aim to have an HG enabled megaregion up and running sometime this year). Opposition to using megas usually seems to boil down to it being a 'hack' of the viewer code, but isn't hacking one of the ways that computer software develops?

I also have a few other megas running as single instances one that is 35 regions in size, that seems to run very smoothly, and one of 25 regions that is, at the moment being a real PITA!

One thing in common with all my megas, is that they are fairly light in terms of prims and I use as few scripts as possible. All contain a largish amount of water and a network of roads, (I love driving in virtual worlds, hence an 'irrational' hatred of sim crossings) and a fair amount of 'scenery' (road signs, buildings, trees etc).

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 Post subject: Re: Maximum number of regions?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:25 pm 
Furious Typer
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Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:38 pm
Posts: 57
Location: Germany
The main problems I know with Megaregions, are:

1) Crossing border from a neighbouring region has strange effects, resulting in a wrong avatar position. Only the south-west edge allows regular crossing. (http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=4761)

2) Teleports to another place than the SW edge work only using a workaround programmed in the OpenSim software: The Avatar TP goes to the SW part, then follows a second internal TP to the correct position.

3) Neighbours cause much bigger network load than with normal regions.

So, if your Megaregion has no neighbours, it should not cause big problems. Of course for the server load they count as the appropriate amount of normal regions, meaning a 6x6 Mega counts as 36 regions.

Actually the OpenSim core team has implemented bugfixes for Megaregions, so I don't think they are outdated. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Maximum number of regions?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:42 pm 
OSG Elite
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Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:19 am
Posts: 1047
Location: Czech Republic
IF i remember right, the megaregion takes less resources than a set of independent regions, because of shared services and less complicated in memory data queries...

Bo

PS: of course it is still experimental stuff...


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